|
Post by Agent Kev on Jun 27, 2004 13:47:40 GMT -5
My big problem with the Danielson/AJ match wasn't the fact that it wasn't spotty, it's just that Danielson blocked every single signature move AJ had. And here is the point. Danielson is a thinking man's wrestler. A lot of his wrestling is based around realism. Which is what I dig about him. If pro wrestling was real wouldn't the opponent know which moves that AJ was going to do and try to block them? It makes sense to me and that's why I like it. Honestly no. I would love to see Benoit mix up his offense and not have to rely on the WWE crutch of just using their signature moves. Think about it this way. They didn't have to pull out big spots and still had the fans eating out of the palms of their hands. To me that's a beautiful thing. Definitely not agreed. Personally I like to see wrestlers in challenging situations. AmDrag put AJ in a challenging situation by blocking all of his big moves and taking away his signature offense thus taking AJ out of his rhytmn and making him wrestle a match he is not used to.
|
|
|
Post by Agent Kev on Jun 27, 2004 13:53:29 GMT -5
A couple of points on some guys mentioned in this thread and why I dig them:
CM Punk- I think he's an aquired taste. He has a great gimmick but you really don't get a feel for it until you have seen several of his promos and felt his intensity during them. He is not really a *special* wrestler in that he is not amazing like Low-Ki or AJ Styles. However in watching him he does everything well but not anything Great and not anything horrible. Also, I think he is a thinking man's wrestler in that he does moves for a reason not just to pop a crowd. That is why I like him. But I definitely don't think he is a guy that you can pop in one or two matches and fall in love with the guy (like you can with AJ, Ki, Daniels, KENTA, CIMA, etc based on their movesets.
Homicide- What really got me digging Cide was seeing him work live. Again he doesn't do anything Great (except his tope con hilo) but he just brings so much passion, intensity and love for wrestling that it is hard not to respect and like him after seeing him put his life on the line in the ring for the fans that paid to see him work.
|
|
TheRick
X-Division Champion
Offical Florida Brother
You heard the man
Posts: 1,492
|
Post by TheRick on Jun 27, 2004 14:04:23 GMT -5
There's my problem, pro wrestling isn't based around realism. Is anybody going to argue that with me? The very fact it isn't based on realism is why I didn't enjoy this match. If Danielson wants to go into shoot fighting then by all means do so, but trying to make a fake sport look real when everybody already knows its fake doesn't work. I also wouldn't say the fans were eating out of their hands. Most of the reaction they got out of the fans were from Danielson making fun of that guy in the front row. The Rock did that on Raw and he didn't even wrestle a match. As for AJ being forced to wrestle a match he's not used to, I understand how that could be fun to watch if done right, but it wasn't. Hell, Bradshaw is making Eddie wrestle matches he's not used to, but hardly anybody are praising those.
|
|
|
Post by Voltage XX on Jun 27, 2004 14:18:57 GMT -5
There's my problem, pro wrestling isn't based around realism. Is anybody going to argue that with me? Somewhat. I see Kev's point more here, and to that statement you made, I would say that's not really true. I'd say the wrestling you're probably used to isn't based on realism. Some wrestling is, and if that's the stuff you like or even are just used to seeing, it's very fun to watch. To someone who's not used to that sort of wrestling and those types of matches, it probably doesn't make sense.
|
|
TheRick
X-Division Champion
Offical Florida Brother
You heard the man
Posts: 1,492
|
Post by TheRick on Jun 27, 2004 14:55:56 GMT -5
I guess the reason it doesn't appeal to me is I'm a pro wrestling fan as well as a huge MMA fan. If I want to see realism I'll go watch UFC or PRIDE, but if I want to suspend belief I'll watch pro wrestling. I guess I can see how you could argue about the realism thing and never really have any side win, but to me a match has to be a little of both. If I wanted to see a kicking contest I'd watch some K-1. If I wanted to see a match were belief is totally suspended I'd watch Edge spear somebody four times his size. Either way I still didn't enjoy the Danielson/AJ match. Homicide/Whitmer is still my favorite singles match on that card. And oh yes, Whitmer is better ;D
|
|
|
Post by Agent Kev on Jun 27, 2004 17:57:59 GMT -5
There's my problem, pro wrestling isn't based around realism. Is anybody going to argue that with me? The very fact it isn't based on realism is why I didn't enjoy this match. If Danielson wants to go into shoot fighting then by all means do so, but trying to make a fake sport look real when everybody already knows its fake doesn't work. I feel the need to explain what I mean by "realism" as it refers to professional wrestling. First of all I don't enjoy MMA or "shoot fighting", it just doesn't appeal to me. When I talk about wrestling and realism I mean that when someone throws a punch it looks like it connects, it looks like it hurts. When someone applies a submission it looks like it hurts. When someone delivers a forearm....ditto. Get my point? It's like good acting versus bad acting. Would I go to see a movie if it had bad acting in it? Would I watch a TV show that had bad acting? Probably not. In the realm of "professional wrestling" which we all know is fake you have certain performers who can make you believe it is real. They can draw you into the match and really make you think each and every move hurts their opponent and means something in the context of the match. That to me is realism. I liken it to growing up watching NWA wrestling instead of WWF wrestling. NWA was much more "realistic" IMO while WWF was much more cartoony and staged. I also enjoy to watch spotty and acrobatic wrestling. But when push comes to shove I would prefer seeing realisitc wrestling to wrestling that just looks fake.
|
|
|
Post by IWSfan4life on Jun 28, 2004 22:39:13 GMT -5
The ROH roster IMO goes out of it's way to try and make wrestling seem real to it's fans. They want to really bring the pride and honor back to the sport as opposed to WWE's gimmicky crappy SE style. Their guys are really stiff and do innovative things hurting themselves to try and restore that lost love and realism that hasnt been seen for some time. So why not have AmDrag wrestle those type of countering realistic matches?
Granted i didn't like a similar match to this effect as i usually do (London/Dragon) and i havent seen this match yet, so hopefully i'll walk out of here and still be disagreeing with you. I love both men, so i hope this doesnt disappoint me now as Dragon/London did.
I agree moreso with Kev/Volt here for what i said above, but i'm scared about this match now.
-Jason Burke
|
|
|
Post by Agent Kev on Jun 28, 2004 22:56:37 GMT -5
I agree moreso with Kev/Volt here for what i said above, but i'm scared about this match now. LOL. Well if nothing else I'm sure it will stimulate some good discussion (as this thread has).
|
|
TheRick
X-Division Champion
Offical Florida Brother
You heard the man
Posts: 1,492
|
Post by TheRick on Jun 29, 2004 9:58:15 GMT -5
Like I said, if I want to see a real fight I'll go watch UFC or PRIDE. I know wrestling isn't real not only because Vinny Mac flat out said it on TV, but I wrestle as well. Wrestling stiff can be fun, but I think there's such thing as being so stiff it's just boring. Low Ki is fun because he's super stiff, but at the same time has awesome pro wrestling exclusive moves like the tidal wave. My personal preference is if I'm watching pro wrestling then I at least want to see some pro wrestling moves. Fake MMA type matches don't do it for me because then I just get irritated that they're not actually pro wrestling. I'm not sure which London/AmDrag match you're talking about, but if it's the best 2 out of 3 falls match I saw then yes, it's exponentially better than AJ/Danielson. The reason I say that is because Danielson actually let London wrestle and not block every damn move he had. Yeah you heard me, I actually enjoyed a Danielson match ;D
|
|
|
Post by Agent Kev on Jun 29, 2004 15:06:40 GMT -5
Like I said, if I want to see a real fight I'll go watch UFC or PRIDE. I know wrestling isn't real not only because Vinny Mac flat out said it on TV, but I wrestle as well. Wrestling stiff can be fun, but I think there's such thing as being so stiff it's just boring. To each his own. If something isn't realistic to me in wrestling then it doesn't make sense. Pro Wrestling is built on the foundation that it is 2 guys battling each other. Call me old school. Like I said I was never a fan of WWF growing up and they are basically the ones who "exposed" the business. Wasn't wrestling more fun when you thought it was real? I prefer realistic wrestling to a cartoon. And 90% of his moveset is copied from either Liger, Kawada or Muto. AmDrag vs. AJ was far from a "fake MMA" match. I agree that Danielson vs. London was better but that's probably because London is a smarter, more well-rounded in-ring wrestler than AJ.
|
|
TheRick
X-Division Champion
Offical Florida Brother
You heard the man
Posts: 1,492
|
Post by TheRick on Jun 29, 2004 15:20:40 GMT -5
You're right. No full contact fighter would try a European uppercut fifty times in the same bout.
|
|
|
Post by Agent Kev on Jun 29, 2004 15:26:37 GMT -5
You're right. No full contact fighter would try a European uppercut fifty times in the same bout. I like the fact that Danielson can get a simple move like an uppercut over with the fans. He doesn't have to do a 450 flippy mcdoodle to pop the crowd. I guess that's one of the things I like about him.
|
|
|
Post by ohairefan4life on Jun 29, 2004 15:33:36 GMT -5
I like the fact that Danielson can get a simple move like an uppercut over with the fans. He doesn't have to do a 450 flippy mcdoodle to pop the crowd. I guess that's one of the things I like about him. Funny thing about that is he most likily could do something like that. Cause as i recall he started off way more spottier like a high flyer.
|
|
TheRick
X-Division Champion
Offical Florida Brother
You heard the man
Posts: 1,492
|
Post by TheRick on Jun 29, 2004 16:06:12 GMT -5
I like the fact that Danielson can get a simple move like an uppercut over with the fans. He doesn't have to do a 450 flippy mcdoodle to pop the crowd. I guess that's one of the things I like about him. Simple moves are fine, but mix it up. Maybe a jab, a chop, SOMETHING ELSE besides the same damn move over and over again. If you played a drinking game during that match where you took a shot every time he did a European uppercut, you'd die.
|
|
|
Post by Agent Kev on Jun 29, 2004 17:17:19 GMT -5
Simple moves are fine, but mix it up. Maybe a jab, a chop, SOMETHING ELSE besides the same damn move over and over again. If you played a drinking game during that match where you took a shot every time he did a European uppercut, you'd die. Only if you are a lightweight
|
|